HZxxZKE

NorPump

Jäsen
I don't remember that anyone has said that Pana has that kind of problem that inside temp is decreasing like that. Does anyone have a comment? Has anyone ever had or heard of such a strange problem that the inside temperature starts to drop like a cow's tail? I'm curious what that could be. Or does the automatic IV without LTO go to a big one at night and just pull too much cold into the house or something else?

PS I have sometimes seen with NZ that it is defrosting totally without reason. Usually it is needed when it is done (but much shorter would have been ok)
Just to be clear, it’s not a significant drop, but when the temperature is a stable 22.5-23 for 3-4 hours at night, with a trend of the temperature moving upwards before we go to bed and outside it’s going from -7 to -4 during the night, I don’t expect the temperature to drop 1.5 degrees during the night when the setpoint is 23, waking up with 21 degrees today morning with a downwards trend and the pump not seeming to use more energy to give more heat. With the FH35 I had it set at 21 degrees, then it was 22 in the house with +/- 0.5 degrees as expected both night and day, it seemed it regulated itself better according to the indoor temperature. Setpoint had to be changed up or down when there was -5 and -10, other than that, pretty stable throughout the season. With HZ25 there are daily needs for temperature adjustments (up or down 1 degree to try to keep it stable).
I might expect too much.

I’m still working on perfecting the airflow, as I believe this also has a big impact on how the air moves in the house and needs to be fine tuned as I did with the mitsu. But it’s the panas temperature sensor that is the main culprit here, without my automation it makes it go to hot so the pump draws maximum power and stops for 10 minutes because it thinks it’s too hot, which just makes the house colder as it can’t seem to figure out that it needs to settle at 800-1000W to give enough heat.

House is from 2012, single floor, 186m2, well insulated, no fireplace, where maybe 140m2 is heated by the pump (again, FH35 had no issues since we took over in 2018, even at -22, but then we had to turn on two 800W ovens. Worked without any extra heat down to -15 ish).
 

iro

Vakionaama
So I jinxed it with my edit, defrost started 2010…heating for almost 3 hours without a defrost, IMHO cell could have handled a bit more and there seemed to be more airflow than when it did the defrosts at 0 degrees, but this is apparently state of the art with measuring temperature difference on the pipes, pictures attached.
10 minutes after defrost started it «smokes» outside, but keeps going for another minute before one can hear the compressor lowering its rpm and the outdoor fan goes on giving a nice smoke show. Some small drops of water at the bottom but looks very clean after the fan has blown away the moisture. So technically it uses 10-11 minutes on a defrost, but from it stops blowing air until it starts blowing hot air again was 17 minutes this time. Why not use 1200W instead of the 600-700W and halve the defrost I don’t quite understand, the FH35 had short and efficient defrosts from what I remember. Energy consumption should be the same, but would provide heating faster?
Picture of Pana's defrost phase below. If defrost is really needed deicing phase will take about 10 minutes. If there is no ice in the heat exchanger, the deicing phase will only take a minute.
When the outside temperature is between -1...+2 C, unnecessary defrosting occurs too often. I'm trying to find out if there are ways to prevent those.
 

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NorPump

Jäsen
Picture of Pana's defrost phase below. If defrost is really needed deicing phase will take about 10 minutes. If there is no ice in the heat exchanger, the deicing phase will only take a minute.
When the outside temperature is between -1...+2 C, unnecessary defrosting occurs too often. I'm trying to find out if there are ways to prevent those.
I noticed it this morning actually, it went into deice without any need and had a short cycle.
Good to have a discussion to get some inputs on how to use the pump better at least…does your inside temp sensor also go really low after a defrost?
 

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NorPump

Jäsen
@iro : is that the blowout temperature in the lower graph? Mine is kinda lower…
If anyone else can measure theirs during deice it would be nice to see if what I’m experiencing is normal or not. Cannot say I noticed that the mitsu I had had frost on the inside unit and was throwing out negative degrees when defrosting.
 

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iro

Vakionaama
@iro : is that the blowout temperature in the lower graph? Mine is kinda lower…
If anyone else can measure theirs during deice it would be nice to see if what I’m experiencing is normal or not. Cannot say I noticed that the mitsu I had had frost on the inside unit and was throwing out negative degrees when defrosting.
Yes, the diagram shows the blowing temperature. The sensor is placed a little further from the heat exchanger so when the fan is off the temperature is close to indoor temperature.
 

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NorPump

Jäsen
I had some spare time today, so the drill was pulled out of the garage.
Drilled a hole in the plastic and moved the sensor outside, working on where the best spot for is, but seems that’s it’s in a good place now. Temp in the kitchen has stabilized now as well during the evening so the fluctuation is a bit less than after the temperature dropped a bit without heating when I was drilling.
My automation is now turned off, so far no initial big rushes, consumption stabilizes a bit more as well.
Going to try some different locations to see which one is ideal.
 

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hermanni2

Jäsen
Put sensor in matchbox case where is cotton wool inside. Does not fluctuate so much with air. Helped in old mitsubishi fd25 a lot. De-icing time intervals went from 45min to 1h 45min.
 

Harrastelija

Vakionaama
Does Panasonic have ”away from home” feature? Some ”eye” which recognise if people are moving in front of inside unit?
If no movement then temperature will be dropped couple degrees.
 

iro

Vakionaama
Does Panasonic have ”away from home” feature? Some ”eye” which recognise if people are moving in front of inside unit?
If no movement then temperature will be dropped couple degrees.
HZ has no that kind of feature.
With Wemos,and couple of pir-sensors and Home Assistant it is quite easy to make that kind of feature. Up and running in my HZ.
 

iro

Vakionaama
Tutkailin lisää Panan tarpeettomia sulatuksia ulkolämpötilassa 0 ... +3°C. Tuolloin ulkoyksikön kenno vuoroin huurtuu kylmimmiltä osin ja vuoroin sulaa, samassa tahdissa ottoteho vaihtelee 330W ja 380W välillä (sykli noin 30min) . Suurempi teho lisää kennon huurtumista, pienemmällä teholla huurretta sulaa. Sulatusvaiheessa vesi valuu kennon alaosaan, mutta sieltä kaikki vesi ei ehdi poistumaan (ulkoyksikön puhallin käy pienillä kierroksilla) ennen seuraavaa suuremman ottotehon vaihetta. ==> Vesi jäätyy kennon alariveille ja pitää tuota osaa muuta kennoa kylmempänä. Seuraavalla tehovaihtelusyklillä sama toistuu ja kennon alaosan lämpötilaero suhteessa muuhun kennoon kasvaa edelleen. Koska Panan oma kennoanturi on sijoitettu kennon alaosaan, DeltaT (= ulkolämpötila - kennon lämpötila) ylittää liipaisurajan (5°C ?) ja sulatus käynnistyy. Tuossa vaiheessa kennon saattaa olla lähes huurteeton ja kennon keskiosasta mitattu DeltaT on noin 2°C.

Koska kennossa ei juurikaan ole sulatettavaa, aktiivinen sulatus kestää vain minuutin verran, mutta koko vaihe ottaa 5 - 10 min. Panan lämmöntuoton näkövinkkelistä tuolla ei ole suurta merkitystä, mutta käyttömukavuuden kannalta on ei toivottu ominaisuus.

Mitä asialle voisi tehdä ?
1) Panan kennoanturin siirtäminen vähemmän huurtuvaan osaan kennoa. Anturi on sijoitettu hankalasti tavoitettavaan paikkaan ulkoyksikön kennon päätyyn koneiston taakse. En tiedä kuinka helppoa sen paikan vaihtaminen olisi.

2) Huijata Panan sulatuslogiikkaa kytkemällä "huijausvastus" Panan kennoanturin rinnalle ==> huijausvastuksen arvolla 68Kohm Pana näkee kennoanturin lämpötilaan 6°C todellista lämpimämpänä eikä näin aloita sulatusta. Kun todellinen sulatustarve havaitaan "huijausvastus" kytketään irti ja nyt Pana näkee oman kennoanturinsa todellisen lämpötilan ja aloittaa sulatuksen. Tämä olen toteuttanut ja nyt sulatuksia tehdään vain tarvittaessa.
 
Viimeksi muokattu:

NorPump

Jäsen
0 to +1 degrees and snow today, fan 3/5.
Seems Im still getting spikes after a defrost but not as bad as before, probably because of cold transferring from the wall to the ambient, but it runs more stable now and temperature inside is more stable as well. Seems this is the better location for the sensor in my case, will see when it gets colder if I’ll move it, but it gets more air around it when the unit is on compared to the other locations I’ve tried.
5 hours without defrosting isn’t bad.
-6 to -9 reported the next days, so will be interesting to see how it works then.

I haven’t noticed any water freezing in the lower parts of my cell when it’s running long, but will take a look next time.
 

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Luukku

Vakionaama
Pana näkee kennoanturin lämpötilaan 6°C todellista lämpimämpänä eikä näin aloita sulatusta. Kun todellinen sulatustarve havaitaan "huijausvastus" kytketään irti ja nyt Pana näkee oman kennoanturinsa todellisen lämpötilan ja aloittaa sulatuksen.
Mistä tuo todellinen sulatustarve havaitaan?
 

iro

Vakionaama
Mistä tuo todellinen sulatustarve havaitaan?
Minulla on anturi mittaamassa kennon lämpötilaa, kuva 1 nuolen osoittama paikka. Kun tuon anturin DeltaT (=ulkolämpötila - anturin lämpötila) ylittää liipaisurajan huijausvastus irrotetaan. Liipaisuraja on minulla DeltaT yhtäjaksoisesti 10 min > 4°C, Kuva 2. Kuvassa näkee kuinka DeltaT vaihtelee kennon huurteisuuden mukaan, keskimääräinen huurteen määrä lisääntyy. Alemmasta käyrästä näkee, että myös COP vaihtele huurteisuuden mukaan, mutta pysyy keskimääräisesti hyvällä tasolla koko lämmitysjakson ajan.

Ohjauslogiikan olen toteuttanut hieman modifioidulla Mitsurunnerilla.
 

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NorPump

Jäsen
Anyone noticed that the plastic vanes are deforming when defrosting after a few weeks of using? It seems to get a «bend» in the middle making a slightly U shape.

pump seems to be working a lot better with the relocation of the temp sensor.
 

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Husky

Hyperaktiivi
Minulla on anturi mittaamassa kennon lämpötilaa, kuva 1 nuolen osoittama paikka. Kun tuon anturin DeltaT (=ulkolämpötila - anturin lämpötila) ylittää liipaisurajan huijausvastus irrotetaan. Liipaisuraja on minulla DeltaT yhtäjaksoisesti 10 min > 4°C, Kuva 2. Kuvassa näkee kuinka DeltaT vaihtelee kennon huurteisuuden mukaan, keskimääräinen huurteen määrä lisääntyy. Alemmasta käyrästä näkee, että myös COP vaihtele huurteisuuden mukaan, mutta pysyy keskimääräisesti hyvällä tasolla koko lämmitysjakson ajan.

Ohjauslogiikan olen toteuttanut hieman modifioidulla Mitsurunnerilla.
Paljo maksaa että myyt/teet tuon modin toiselle :) Luulen että tuo toisinaan tapahtuva sulatushulluttelu ja liian pitkät sulatukset ovat oikeasti huono asia. Katkokäynti nyt ehkä enempi ärsyttävä eikä niin paljoa laske hyötysuhdetta. NZ kyseessä itsellä siis
Anyone noticed that the plastic vanes are deforming when defrosting after a few weeks of using? It seems to get a «bend» in the middle making a slightly U shape.

pump seems to be working a lot better with the relocation of the temp sensor.
Have not seen at NZ, but I will check later
 

iro

Vakionaama
Paljo maksaa että myyt/teet tuon modin toiselle :) Luulen että tuo toisinaan tapahtuva sulatushulluttelu ja liian pitkät sulatukset ovat oikeasti huono asia. Katkokäynti nyt ehkä enempi ärsyttävä eikä niin paljoa laske hyötysuhdetta. NZ kyseessä itsellä siis
Ensin täytyy hieman pidemmällä kokeilujaksolla ja lämpötila-alueella varmistaa että systeemi todella toimii luotettavasti. Tuleva viikko näyttäisi olevan pakkasviikko.
Osat eli SonOff Elite, säänkestävä kotelo sekä DS18B20 anturit maksavat jotakin 60€.
Lisäksi pumpun asennuspaikassa täytyy tavalla tai toisella tehdä pumpun kennoanturin johdotukseen liitäntä huijausvastukselle ja ottaa sähkö SonOff:lle. Jotta voi varmistaa että systeemi toimii suunntellusti on laite pystyttävä kytkemään paikalliseen WiFi-verkkoon.
 

iro

Vakionaama
Laitan tähän näyteen Panan tehokkaasta toiminnasta pikkupakkasella kun kastepiste on vain hiukan ulkolämpötilaa alempi. Kuva 1 Lämmitysjakso ei ole kovin pitkä, mutta kuten COP- ja DeltaT-käyrät osoittavat että kaikki sulatukset ovat olleet tarpeellisia. Ottoteho on lähes vakio koko lämmitysjakson ajan. Kuva 2.
Lämmitys/sulatusvaiheen pituudet kuvassa 3 (skaalauksen vuoksi sulatusvaiheen pituus on kuvassa kymmenkertaisena eli sulatus kestää noin 10 min). Kuvan alemmassa käyrässä puhalluslämpötila.
 

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NorPump

Jäsen
So it seems the relocation of the sensor has made the pump to work more as expected. Although there is the occasional unnecessary defrost, at least it is very short when it starts. I’ve noticed it usually does this when the pump has been off during the mid day when the sun is heating up the house and it’s turned back on again in the afternoon (just by turning down the temperature setpoint).
In normal operation I have never seen the pump deliver its stated minimum input power though, kind of disappointed with that.
 

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iro

Vakionaama
So it seems the relocation of the sensor has made the pump to work more as expected. Although there is the occasional unnecessary defrost, at least it is very short when it starts. I’ve noticed it usually does this when the pump has been off during the mid day when the sun is heating up the house and it’s turned back on again in the afternoon (just by turning down the temperature setpoint).
In normal operation I have never seen the pump deliver its stated minimum input power though, kind of disappointed with that.
I'm now able to control Pana's defrosting with "Mitsurunner"-solution. Below are some charts comparing the operation with/without Mitsurunner. It shows that Pana's own logic keeps heating-periods too short.
The input power has been around 600-700W. A couple of higher peaks because of Pana was turned off for a moment. (I changed the value of setting 60 from 0 to 1, but it seems that this has no effect on the defrost cycle).
 

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NorPump

Jäsen
I'm now able to control Pana's defrosting with "Mitsurunner" solution. Below are some charts comparing the operation with/without Mitsurunner. It shows that Pana's own logic keeps heating periods too short.
The input power has been around 600-700W. A couple of higher peaks because of Pana was turned off for a moment. (I changed the value of setting 60 from 0 to 1, but it seems that this has no effect on the defrost cycle).
Think I will have to look at doing something like this. It varies between 1-2 hours between defrosts when it's -10 and there is absolutely no reason for a defrost. Yesterday afternoon it kept going for 3 hours, but the cell was clean when a defrost was initiated and no water dripping during the defrost.
This night it has varied in both runtime and power. And when defrosting this morning, the cell is clean and no water dripping.
Might be I've had too high expectations, hoping technology actually improved and manual tinkering with a brand new pump would be unnecessary…
 

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NorPump

Jäsen
Weird thing that happened. Decided to turn the pump off and on via the switch for 10 minutes to see if it might help with the unnecessary defrosts. Seemed to work OK after starting it, but then the inside temp sensor started to show values way off.
Measured with a temp sensor, it showed 22.7 while the pump showed 19 degrees then worked its way up to 25 degrees, without any change to the «manual» temp sensor...pulled out another temp sensor, just to verify, same values as the Weber one, inside sensor showed way off…
 

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NorPump

Jäsen
Does anyone have the 12 model? I have a HZ25ZKE today, but it looks like they might pick it down as there are never ending issues with it since it was installed in December and they don't have any solution to my problems.
E.g. Tonight it didn't ramp up, just stayed at 1200-1500W even though the internal temp reported by the pump was 3 degrees off causing the house to cool down instead of keeping it warm. Increasing the setpoint to 24 in the morning caused it to suddenly go to 2000W.

Curious on if one should go for the 09 or the 12, 12 has a bigger outdoor unit which could potentially provide better efficiency?
Have there been any issues with it?

Edit: I see my post was moved from the Fujitsu thread. The «09» and «12» are the Fujitsu/general models that I am now looking at, and I’m curious if anyone (weird to ask this in the Panasonic part of the forum) have any experiences with the Fujitsu models I mentioned above?
 
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iro

Vakionaama
Mitsurunnerilla terästettyä HZ25:ta on nyt testattu lämpötila-alueella -15...+3 C, tarpeettomat sulatukset ovat jääneet pois ja toiminta vaikuttaa luotettavalta. Koska turhat sulatukset jäävät pois myös sulatuksen jälkeen tulevat teho-boostit harvenevat eikä pumppu mene niin helposti katkolle (tällä on merkitystä kun lämmitystarve on pieni = ulkoillma nollan paikkeilla).
Tämän hetken kokemuksen perusteella sanoisin että HZ25:n oma kennoanturi on sijoitettu kennostossa kohtaan joka huuruu ensimmäisenä. Sulatusongelmat saattaisivat korjaantua siirtämällä kennoanturi parempaan paikkaan.

Alla kuvaa toiminnasta parin viikon ajalta. Suuri osa sulatuksista on tapahtunut Mitsurunneri säälisulatuksina (sulatusraja 180min). Kuvan vihreällä merkityllä aikajaksolla Mitsurunner oli pois käytöstä, punaisella sää oli sellainen että kenno meni nopeasti aivan tukkoon ja sulatukset olivat tarpeellisia.
 

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iro

Vakionaama
Tilastotietoa:
Viikon aikana HZ25 teki noin 60 sulatusta, eli sulatusten väli oli 170min. Vettä kertyi tuona aikana noin 70 litraa. Ulkolämpö 0...+2C, suhtellinen kosteus 90...100%.
 
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Husky

Hyperaktiivi
Tilastotietoa:
Viikon aikana HZ25 teki noin 60 sulatusta, eli sulatusten väli oli 170min. Vettä kertyi tuona aikana noin 70 litraa. Ulkolämpö 0...+2C, suhtellinen kosteus 90...100%.
Mutuna vesimäärä kuulostaa todella pieneltä jos päällä 24/7. Meillä ollut vastaavassa kelissä ilp päällä 8-12h per päivä ja parin päivån välein olen tyhjentänyt puolikkaan paljun ja palju on 70L
 

iro

Vakionaama
Mutuna vesimäärä kuulostaa todella pieneltä jos päällä 24/7. Meillä ollut vastaavassa kelissä ilp päällä 8-12h per päivä ja parin päivån välein olen tyhjentänyt puolikkaan paljun ja palju on 70L
Jatkuvasti päällä ilman katkokäyntiä, keskimääräinen ottoteho 450W.
 

RauskiH

Vakionaama
Mutuna vesimäärä kuulostaa todella pieneltä jos päällä 24/7. Meillä ollut vastaavassa kelissä ilp päällä 8-12h per päivä ja parin päivån välein olen tyhjentänyt puolikkaan paljun ja palju on 70L
Minusta kuulostaa ihan normaalilta. Mitsu tuntuu myös tekevän vettä n. litra per sulatus tahdilla kun ollaan syksyllä/talvella nollan tuntumassa tai pikkupakkasilla, oikeen kosteassa nollakelissä saatta tulla jopa 1,5l per sulatus. Tällöin sulatukset tulee reilusti alle tuntiin ja kenno on aina umpikuurassa ennen sulatusta. Pahimmillaan tuosta 65l paljusta on vesi tullut yli vähän reilu kaksi vuorokautta edellisestä tyhjennyksestä
 

NorPump

Jäsen
Small update from your neighbour.
Got a new outside device on Thursday, of course there is no hard frosts forecasted. -3 to + 3 degrees since it was swapped.
When the device is deicing now, there is always a need for it, so seems there are no unnecessary defrosts yet.
Interesting to see how it will work when it’s -7 to -15 and the cell usually was clean when it went into defrost.
 

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iro

Vakionaama
Small update from your neighbour.
Got a new outside device on Thursday, of course there is no hard frosts forecasted. -3 to + 3 degrees since it was swapped.
When the device is deicing now, there is always a need for it, so seems there are no unnecessary defrosts yet.
Interesting to see how it will work when it’s -7 to -15 and the cell usually was clean when it went into defrost.
Another interesting outside temperature area is between 0...+3C.

 

NorPump

Jäsen
Another interesting outside temperature area is between 0...+3C.

Will see when it defrosts, been going since 1235 and temps are rising slowly outside.
 

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NorPump

Jäsen
Second defrost.
Seems to be working much better than the previous outdoor unit.
hopefully there will be some more -10 frosts before next season.
 

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  • Tykkää
Reactions: iro

NorPump

Jäsen
Has anyone actually seen the minimum input power on this device? Like I mentioned in another post I think, the only times I’ve seen it is when the setpoint is at 17.5 degrees, anything over and it runs at 350-380W. Nowhere to be found in the manual, datasheet or service manual that this is the condition to have it run on minimum power, and it annoys me as this was one of the reasons this pump was chosen, so it can run at low power when low heating is needed like now when it’s +5 degrees it could have ran lower than the 370W and kept an even temperature. Instead it starts heating and begins to cycle.
 

Husky

Hyperaktiivi
Has anyone actually seen the minimum input power on this device? Like I mentioned in another post I think, the only times I’ve seen it is when the setpoint is at 17.5 degrees, anything over and it runs at 350-380W. Nowhere to be found in the manual, datasheet or service manual that this is the condition to have it run on minimum power, and it annoys me as this was one of the reasons this pump was chosen, so it can run at low power when low heating is needed like now when it’s +5 degrees it could have ran lower than the 370W and kept an even temperature. Instead it starts heating and begins to cycle.
Exactly same here (except I have never seen lower input power than 360-380W).
 

iro

Vakionaama
Has anyone actually seen the minimum input power on this device? Like I mentioned in another post I think, the only times I’ve seen it is when the setpoint is at 17.5 degrees, anything over and it runs at 350-380W. Nowhere to be found in the manual, datasheet or service manual that this is the condition to have it run on minimum power, and it annoys me as this was one of the reasons this pump was chosen, so it can run at low power when low heating is needed like now when it’s +5 degrees it could have ran lower than the 370W and kept an even temperature. Instead it starts heating and begins to cycle.
Agree, if the demand is 18C or more, the minimum power is about 320W. I haven't seen any specification about it.

I'm working on that issue, my test environment now: The indoor air sensor is located at floor level in the corner of room (the temperature there is a couple of degrees lower). When the demand is 17.5 degrees, room temperature is about 20 C and input power on level 215W.
Have to think how to continue...
 

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NorPump

Jäsen
Agree, if the demand is 18C or more, the minimum power is about 320W. I haven't seen any specification about it.

I'm working on that issue, my test environment now: The indoor air sensor is located at floor level in the corner of room (the temperature there is a couple of degrees lower). When the demand is 17.5 degrees, room temperature is about 20 C and input power on level 215W.
Have to think how to continue...
In a German forum I read that one user changed setting 58 to 3, this gave him the opportunity to set the temp at 17.5 and have 20.5 as an effective setpoint which worked for him. Unfortunate I have to have my setpoint at 22-23, so this will not work for me, but you could try.
 

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iro

Vakionaama
In a German forum I read that one user changed setting 58 to 3, this gave him the opportunity to set the temp at 17.5 and have 20.5 as an effective setpoint which worked for him. Unfortunate I have to have my setpoint at 22-23, so this will not work for me, but you could try.

Thanks for the tip, it helps:sormet: Based on my analysis also you could use this method.

Now I have setting 58 offset 1 °C and the demand-setpoint is 16 °C.
==> room temperature is 20.5 °C. Minimum input power is about 210W.

Pana 's temperature sensor is located on the wall about 1 meter below the indoor unit, where the temperature is about 19.5 °C. (= 1°C less than room temperature)
The Pana's own sensor shows 18 °C (= 1.5 °C less than the actual temperature).

Having demand-setpoint 17.5 °C room temperature would be 22 °C, and with setting 58 3 °C offset room temperature would be 24 °C.

So if the Pana temperature sensor can be moved further away from the indoor unit, it is possible to keep a room temperature of 24 °C when demand setpoint in 17.5 °C.
 

Husky

Hyperaktiivi
Today our house has been quite cold (about 20degC) and there has been real need for heating, but Pana has driven itself into fast on-off cycle, because of rage of too high start power. Demand was 20.5degC.

I tried 17.5degC setpoint, if it would help into the rage, but it did not. Same on-off cycle continued.

Interesting tip that 58 and +3. I will try if I sometimes can get into service mode. It has not been possible to enter that for some strange reason.
BTW NZ goes below 17.5 setpoint also (in case if it is minimum with HZ)
 
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