HZxxZKE

[iro]

Today our house has been quite cold (about 20degC) and there has been real need for heating, but Pana has driven itself into fast on-off cycle, because of rage of too high start power. Demand was 20.5degC.

I tried 17.5degC setpoint, if it would help into the rage, but it did not. Same on-off cycle continued.

Interesting tip that 58 and +3. I will try if I sometimes can get into service mode. It has not been possible to enter that for some strange reason.
BTW NZ goes below 17.5 setpoint also (in case if it is minimum with HZ)

Pystytkö siirtämään imuilma-anturin kauemmas sisäyksiköstä? Minulla anturin siirto metrin verran sisäyksikön allapuolelle pienensi merkittäväsi tehoryntäilyä.

Myös HZ:ssa alin lämpötila-asetus on 16, mutta syystä tai toisesta pumppu suostuu menemään pienelle ottotehoille (min 210W ) vain jos asetus on alle 18. Eli jos lämmöntarve on pieni katkokäyntiä voi vältää kun asetusarvoin voi pitää alle 18.

 

[Husky]

Pystytkö siirtämään imuilma-anturin kauemmas sisäyksiköstä? Minulla anturin siirto metrin verran sisäyksikön allapuolelle pienensi merkittäväsi tehoryntäilyä.

Myös HZ:ssa alin lämpötila-asetus on 16, mutta syystä tai toisesta pumppu suostuu menemään pienelle ottotehoille (min 210W ) vain jos asetus on alle 18. Eli jos lämmöntarve on pieni katkokäyntiä voi vältää kun asetusarvoin voi pitää alle 18.

Juu, olen huomannut viesteistäsi tuon siirron edullisuuden, mutten viitsi takuunalaista käpälöidä tuolla tavoit, jota ei voi palauttaa. Harmi ettei ole mahdollisuutta siirtää ilman näkyviä tekoja.

Does it work better with auto/slow blow speed ?

Ei ole vaikuttanut puhallusnopeuden muutokset

 

[NorPump]

Yeah, I've noticed from your posts that the transfer is cheap, but I don't feel like messing around with a warranty that can't be returned. It's a shame there's no way to transfer without visible actions.


Not affected by changes in blowing speed

Discuss it with your installer, mine was fine with drilling a hole in the indoor unit and moving the sensor. He said «if the pump breaks because of this, I’ll cover the cost myself».

Il try to play around with the service setting once home, away for a business trip and wife wouldn’t be happy if things don’t work, which they do now.

 

[Husky]

Kysytään myös tässä HZ-ketjussa:
Voisiko joku kertoa tiedon tai aavistuksen:
Miten kakeen päätyy nuo serviceasetukset eli jos on patterit kakesta pois, niin mitä se sen jälkeen näyttää? Ei ne masiinan jostakin muistista varmaankaan päädy ns itsekseen kakeen?

Olen varma, että kerran jätin asetukset 68 ja 71 kolmoseen, mutta 6kk myöhemmin ne kaken mielestä olivatkin 1. Epäilytti, että onko kake palannut johonkin defaultarvoihin ja masiinassa onkin kolmoset käytössä.

 

[NorPump]

Also asked in this HZ thread:
Could someone provide some information or a hint:
How do those service settings end up in the cache, i.e. if the batteries are removed from the cache, what does it show afterwards? Surely they don't end up in the cache by themselves from some memory in the machine?

I'm sure that I once left settings 68 and 71 on triples, but 6 months later, Kake thought they were 1. I suspected that Kake had reverted to some default values and the machine was actually using triples.

I think the remote is as dumb as it gets, all the data is stored in the indoor unit itself and it probably has some default settings that it comes with from the factory.
Ie: ZKE has new defrost logic enabled by default per the service manual, the remote showed it as 0 the first time I checked.
Which supports my thought.

According to the service manual there is an eeprom somewhere, not clearly mentioned anywhere, but I have a strong belief it’s in the indoor unit, although it might indicate there is something in the remote itself also.

 

[iro]

Ulkolämpötila 0 … + 5 °C, HZ25:n imuilma-anturi noin 0,5 m sisäyksikön alapuolella, kaukkarissa pyyntilämpö 17.5 °C, asteuksen 58 lämpötilakorjaus 1 °C.
Ulkolämpötilan ollessa nollan paikkeilla pari tarpeellista sulatusta joiden jälkeen korkeampi ottoteho, muutoin ottoteho noin 210W.
Sisälämpö noin 22 °C. Kuvan "Pana-sisä"-käyrä on mitattu Panan imuilma-antturin vierestä, todellinen huonelämpötila noin 1,5°C korkeampi.

 

[Husky]

Ulkolämpötila 0 … + 5 °C, HZ25:n imuilma-anturi noin 0,5 m sisäyksikön alapuolella, kaukkarissa pyyntilämpö 17.5 °C, asteuksen 58 lämpötilakorjaus 1 °C.
Ulkolämpötilan ollessa nollan paikkeilla pari tarpeellista sulatusta joiden jälkeen korkeampi ottoteho, muutoin ottoteho noin 210W.
Sisälämpö noin 22 °C. Kuvan "Pana-sisä"-käyrä on mitattu Panan imuilma-antturin vierestä, todellinen huonelämpötila noin 1,5°C korkeampi.

Oletko katsonut minkälaisia puhalluslämpötiloja HZ:ssa on käynnistyksien alkukiukussa?
Tänään näin, kun NZ puhalsi yli 53 asteista muutama minuutti käynnistyksen jälkeen, ei mitään järkeä. Ihme että menee katkolle.

Pyynti oli 20,5 astetta ja käynnistettäessä lähihuoneet 20 asteisia. Ja 45min myöhemmin lähihuoneet lähes 22 astetta ja joku sanoo, että ilpit eivät ole tehokkaita lämmönnostajia!
Nyt ei ole ihan aukoton ottotehomittaus tällä kertaa, mutta näyttäisi että kohta käynnistyksen jälkeen ottanut yli 2000W tehoa, voiV tätä

 

[iro]

Oletko katsonut minkälaisia puhalluslämpötiloja HZ:ssa on käynnistyksien alkukiukussa?
Tänään näin, kun NZ puhalsi yli 53 asteista muutama minuutti käynnistyksen jälkeen, ei mitään järkeä. Ihme että menee katkolle.

Pyynti oli 20,5 astetta ja käynnistettäessä lähihuoneet 20 asteisia. Ja 45min myöhemmin lähihuoneet lähes 22 astetta ja joku sanoo, että ilpit eivät ole tehokkaita lämmönnostajia!
Nyt ei ole ihan aukoton ottotehomittaus tällä kertaa, mutta näyttäisi että kohta käynnistyksen jälkeen ottanut yli 2000W tehoa, voiV tätä

Ohessa käppyröitä. Puhallus on asennossa 2 eli MediumLow, pyynti 17,5 + 1.
Kuvan "Pana-sisä" on huonelämpö 0,5 m sisäyksikön alapuolella.

 

[iro]

Oletko katsonut minkälaisia puhalluslämpötiloja HZ:ssa on käynnistyksien alkukiukussa?
Tänään näin, kun NZ puhalsi yli 53 asteista muutama minuutti käynnistyksen jälkeen, ei mitään järkeä. Ihme että menee katkolle.

Pyynti oli 20,5 astetta ja käynnistettäessä lähihuoneet 20 asteisia. Ja 45min myöhemmin lähihuoneet lähes 22 astetta ja joku sanoo, että ilpit eivät ole tehokkaita lämmönnostajia!
Nyt ei ole ihan aukoton ottotehomittaus tällä kertaa, mutta näyttäisi että kohta käynnistyksen jälkeen ottanut yli 2000W tehoa, voiV tätä

Oheinen tilanne eiliseltä, jolloin aurinko paistoi ja lämmitti sisäilmaa, 210W:n ottoteho oli liikaa ja pumppu meni katkolle. Katkokäyntisykli oli melko lyhyt, eli alun tehoryntäys ja heti kun se tasoittuu niin mennään katkolle. Olen tuohon jo tehnyt HomeAssistanttiin virityksen joka ottaa ylös sisälämpötilan katkolle mentäessä ja laittaa pumpun off. Pumppu käynnistetään vasta kun sisälämpötila on laskenut riittävästi (1 aste?). Toimintaa pääsen testaamaan kunhan tulee olosuhteet että katkokäyntiä esiintyy.

 

[Husky]

Oheinen tilanne eiliseltä, jolloin aurinko paistoi ja lämmitti sisäilmaa, 210W:n ottoteho oli liikaa ja pumppu meni katkolle. Katkokäyntisykli oli melko lyhyt, eli alun tehoryntäys ja heti kun se tasoittuu niin mennään katkolle. Olen tuohon jo tehnyt HomeAssistanttiin virityksen joka ottaa ylös sisälämpötilan katkolle mentäessä ja laittaa pumpun off. Pumppu käynnistetään vasta kun sisälämpötila on laskenut riittävästi (1 aste?). Toimintaa pääsen testaamaan kunhan tulee olosuhteet että katkokäyntiä esiintyy.

Tuollainen 700W alkuraivo on suht järkevissä rajoissa, mutta ihan liikaa sekin. Mikä on ollut päässä vikana tehtaalla? Meillä ainakin ilpin lähivaikutusalue (suurin osa talosta) lämpenee ihan pirusti jo moisella teholla vartissa lähes kelissä kuin kelissä, niin ei mitään tolkkua tässä touhussa.

 

[Husky]

Thank for @NorPump about tip of the year!

I have been cursing too high min power a long time. Now, with 58/+3 modification NZ has run 210W power! Hard to believe this, but it really happened.

(At the end I could get into service setup, I can't understand why it took about 50 tries to get into there, pump was heating by the way when I got in)

Now I am waiting that someone founds some parameter modification against too long deicings!

 

[wannabe]

50 yritystä on aika paljon. Jos oikein muistan, niin sullahan on takuunalainen laite. Vaadi viallisen kaken tilalle takuuseen uusi.

 

[Husky]

50 yritystä on aika paljon. Jos oikein muistan, niin sullahan on takuunalainen laite. Vaadi viallisen kaken tilalle takuuseen uusi.

Täytyy harkita. Pelkona vaan että joku ihme invalid user tilanne ja kuitenkin joku rajoite mitä en tajua

 

[NorPump]

I have to consider it. I'm just afraid that there's some weird invalid user situation and yet some restriction that I don't understand.

I sent my Installer to ask Panasonic again on my question on the minimum input that isn't possible to achieve without «tweaking», as there is no way for a customer to know about this as it's not in the service manual or the manual. I'm almost at the point where I consider it false advertising…
How is a normal consumer expected to know about this?
Is it the same case with other vendors of heat pumps?
Regarding the long defrosts I don't think there is anything to do, it is just poorly designed software in my opinion and it seems Panasonic isn't interested in improving it.
One should condense the experiences, like we have here, and have a «buyers guide» on how pumps work in order to get to pick the best pump for one's expectations. 16 minutes defrost and 40-50 minutes heating time is horrible for a poorly insulated house in colder climates as it will be felt very quickly that the temperature drops during a defrost.

 

[Husky]

One should condense the experiences, like we have here, and have a «buyers guide» on how pumps work in order to get to pick the best pump for one's expectations. 16 minutes defrost and 40-50 minutes heating time is horrible for a poorly insulated house in colder climates as it will be felt very quickly that the temperature drops during a defrost.

Exactly. I would have been very interested to know this beforehand.

 

[juovi]

Onko joku löytänyt hyvää suulaketta imuriin tähän Panan malliin? Olemassa olevilla ei oiken saa kennon pinnasta imuroitua kaikkia pölyjä pois. Aika kapea saisi suulake olla tähän malliin.

 

[NorPump]

Weird things going on with the pump these days…
The temp sensor of the pump is not registering that the temp is going up, so it just keeps outputting heat.
Has happened two times, gave the installer a call on Friday and it’s probably going to result in the pump being dismantled and exchanged to a General/Fujitsu…I’m tired of this now, tried so many things since it was installed in December and I just think that this pump doesn’t work at my place.

 

[Husky]

Fuji was my nr1 but local companies were not interested to sell it (there was high boom of heat pumps then).
I quite often has been thinking if it has been better. Probably it has some own problems too

 

[NorPump]

Fuji was my nr1 but local companies were not interested in selling it (there was a high boom of heat pumps then).
I quite often have been thinking if it has been better. Probably it has some own problems too

I'll see what happens next week, as it is, I am not able to achieve minimum input power with my wanted inside temp, even with sensor outside the pump and setting 58 to +3.
So no way to reach the advertised minimum input, even with tweaking.
Pump is suddenly living its own life the last days, heating when there is no need and increasing the temp to 3-4 degrees above set temp...

Will update once the Installer reaches back, ideally I should just keep the old FH35, as there were never issues with the temperature, just increased consumption...
Should probably get the RW35 but it will not fit in the location due to a window.

 

[iro]

I'll see what happens next week, as it is, I am not able to achieve minimum input power with my wanted inside temp, even with sensor outside the pump and setting 58 to +3.
So no way to reach the advertised minimum input, even with tweaking.
Pump is suddenly living its own life the last days, heating when there is no need and increasing the temp to 3-4 degrees above set temp...

Will update once the Installer reaches back, ideally I should just keep the old FH35, as there were never issues with the temperature, just increased consumption...
Should probably get the RW35 but it will not fit in the location due to a window.

Just guessing ...some problem (= too high resistance) with the indoor NTC or wiring ==> HZ sees too low inside temperature and tries to push harder.

 

[NorPump]

Just guessing ...some problem (= too high resistance) with the indoor NTC or wiring ==> HZ sees too low inside temperature and tries to push harder.

Could be, inside card and temp sensor has been replaced once already. Installer actually said that Panasonic said after the outdoor unit was changed that «if this doesn't work, we don't have any other solutions».

 

[Husky]

Kysytääs tässäkin ketjussa:
Onkos muilla ongelmia Cloudin kanssa?
Sanoo että tarkista wifi/LAN.

Talossa on netti ok ja wifi toimii.

Cloudissa on ollut useamman päivän ilmoitus, että vanhat Androidit lakkaa toimimasta mutta minulla on luurissa paljon uudempi.

 

[NorPump]

So I have the option to exchange to the Fujitsu/General 12 for €500, this will cover the price difference from the pana and half the installation cost.
Which I don’t find quite unreasonable as there’s technically nothing wrong with the pump, it just has poor logic and temp sensors that work in a «Panasonic» way which just doesn’t work and is impossible to figure out before the pump has been put in use…
My concern is that the Fujitsu/general has the indoor sensor placed at the same location as the Panasonic, but at least it will hopefully get to the lower input powers without tweaking and how the airflow of the Fujitsu is.
I feel I’ve tried most options there is with the Panasonic relocating the temperature sensor to several places, last resort would be to get the temp sensor even further away from the unit as I believe this is the main culprit. Although it doesn’t quite explain the sudden random increase in heating and when measuring the temperature at the same location with a different thermometer it shows completely different values…

Just should have kept the FH35 and accepted the increased consumption it had…
Not quite sure what to do, heating season is nearing its end here…

 

[iro]

So I have the option to exchange to the Fujitsu/General 12 for €500, this will cover the price difference from the pana and half the installation cost.
Which I don’t find quite unreasonable as there’s technically nothing wrong with the pump, it just has poor logic and temp sensors that work in a «Panasonic» way which just doesn’t work and is impossible to figure out before the pump has been put in use…
My concern is that the Fujitsu/general has the indoor sensor placed at the same location as the Panasonic, but at least it will hopefully get to the lower input powers without tweaking and how the airflow of the Fujitsu is.
I feel I’ve tried most options there is with the Panasonic relocating the temperature sensor to several places, last resort would be to get the temp sensor even further away from the unit as I believe this is the main culprit. Although it doesn’t quite explain the sudden random increase in heating and when measuring the temperature at the same location with a different thermometer it shows completely different values…

Just should have kept the FH35 and accepted the increased consumption it had…
Not quite sure what to do, heating season is nearing its end here…

I agree, it took me three months to get HZ25 working the way I wanted. The tweaks I made weren't very big, but required a bit of electronics skills. I think the most significant improvement came from moving indoor air sensor further away from the indoor unit.
Now my HZ works perfectly (my humble opinion ).

In my HZ25 I haven't noticed any sudden random increase in heating problem.

I hope you make a good decision for next heating season !

 

[iro]

Alla havaintoja Pana HZ25:n katkokäynnistä. Sisäyksikön anturi siirretty kotelon ulkopuolelle, pyyntilämpö 16C, pyyntilämpötilakorjaus +3C ==> Sisälämpö noin 21C

Minun käyttöympäristössäni mennään jatkuvalla minimiteholla 220 W kun ulkolämpö on alle 9C ,kuvan alue C..
Kuvan alueella A Panan normaalia katkokäyntiä, ottoteho kaskimäärin 250 W.
Kuvan alueella B HA:n ohjaamaa katkokäyntiä; (=pumppu laitetaan OFF kun se menee katkolle ja ON kun sisälämpö laskenut 0,5C). Keskimääräinen ottoteho tuolloin 160W.

 

[NorPump]

Long update from your neighbour…

I sent a documented case to the Norwegian consumer authorities in April after the seller refused to cooperate and made unreasonable demands when I asked to switch to another brand through him (eg. Not allowed to reference any measurements towards the service manual, just have to accept that it will be «as is» etc, seller couldnt even provide me with any information about what a proper replacement could be).

It took about 6½ months for the case to be officially opened. The same evening the case was assigned to a caseworker, I suddenly received an email from the seller saying that Panasonic wanted to buy the unit back. I sent my «report» to Panasonic as well, without any replies.

Apparently, asking questions about marketing numbers that are not achievable and about poorly programmed control logic was too much…

I'm now getting the pump removed and will receive a full refund. I'm happy with the outcome, but I'll stay clear of Panasonic heat pumps in the future unless they make major improvements in several areas:

Technical and functional issues

• Defrost time (15–25 minutes) – The pump can take up to 25 minutes before it starts blowing warm air again, but usually 20 minutes. For homes with larger heating demand, this can create a negative cycle: as the temperature drops after each defrost, the unit ramps up unnecessarily, which in turn causes more frequent defrosts.
• Temperature readings after defrost – After defrost, the unit blasts hot air for a short time, then short-cycles aggressively. Which in turn causes defrosts to happen more often.
• Temperature control – When the display shows 21 °C, increasing the setpoint to 21.5 °C or 22 °C does nothing, same energy use, same air temperature. Only at 22.5–23 °C does it react, but then it overshoots and wastes power.
  This leads to confusing temperature behavior: 21 °C might keep the house at 22 °C one day, but when outdoor temperature changes, the unit doesn't adjust its power draw so indoor temperature slowly drops or rises even as the unit "thinks" it's stable.
  From the service manual, it looks like the unit only reacts to temperature differences larger than 1.5 °C, which might explain the strange behavior. (My wife said it was cold, so she increased the temp by 0.5 like with the mitsu, nothing was happening, then another 0.5. Still nothing and she was cold. Then after doing this a few times it was suddenly way too hot. Not very user friendly)
• Internal temperature sensor placement. From the factory, it's mounted directly on the indoor coil. This design caused huge temperature fluctuations and unreliable readings in my case.
• Minimum input power draw. The marketed minimum power draw is not achievable under normal conditions. The seller had no idea how to make it happen, and Panasonic hasn't commented either.
  Looking at other forums (and as I wrote previously here) found a hidden "recipe" for achieving the advertised numbers, but it's basically impossible unless the internal sensor is moved far away from the coil. My unit had, on the worst days, up to 100 starts/stops per day, causing big indoor temperature swings and unnecessary power draw due to this.

Other issues:

• Ticking sound: A mechanical ticking noise started around 7–8 months in. Before buying, I was told "there are never issues with Panasonic," yet the seller's later email suggested this was actually a known issue with a bearing and an adjustment needed.
• Outdoor unit behavior: The first outdoor unit defrosted without any real need for it. Replacing the unit improved this, but it still performs unnecessary defrosts even with a clean coil, just less often.
• Noise level: The outdoor unit is much louder than my previous Mitsubishi and Daikin models. It genuinely sounds like a small propeller plane, and the compressor makes a metallic resonance.
• Indoor vanes: The vanes on the indoor unit deformed after only 2–3 months of normal use.

Summary:

I'm relieved to get a full refund, but the experience was exhausting. The product clearly doesn't perform according to its specifications, and the support process was unnecessarily difficult. Hopefully this helps others evaluate their options before buying.
Unit will be replaced with a Daikin comfora we have in the bedroom, which I know works fine…

Disclaimer: These are my personal experiences with «one» unit and one seller; others may have different results.

 

[Husky]

• Defrost time (15–25 minutes) – The pump can take up to 25 minutes before it starts blowing warm air again, but usually 20 minutes. For homes with larger heating demand, this can create a negative cycle: as the temperature drops after each defrost, the unit ramps up unnecessarily, which in turn causes more frequent defrosts.
• Temperature readings after defrost – After defrost, the unit blasts hot air for a short time, then short-cycles aggressively. Which in turn causes defrosts to happen more often.

Thanks for these comments. I have those two big problems with my NZ and nice to have some support to own opinions (in this forum's NZ string there has not been so much understanding for these)

 

[iro]

Long update from your neighbour…

I sent a documented case to the Norwegian consumer authorities in April after the seller refused to cooperate and made unreasonable demands when I asked to switch to another brand through him (eg. Not allowed to reference any measurements towards the service manual, just have to accept that it will be «as is» etc, seller couldnt even provide me with any information about what a proper replacement could be).

It took about 6½ months for the case to be officially opened. The same evening the case was assigned to a caseworker, I suddenly received an email from the seller saying that Panasonic wanted to buy the unit back. I sent my «report» to Panasonic as well, without any replies.

Apparently, asking questions about marketing numbers that are not achievable and about poorly programmed control logic was too much…

I'm now getting the pump removed and will receive a full refund. I'm happy with the outcome, but I'll stay clear of Panasonic heat pumps in the future unless they make major improvements in several areas:

Technical and functional issues

• Defrost time (15–25 minutes) – The pump can take up to 25 minutes before it starts blowing warm air again, but usually 20 minutes. For homes with larger heating demand, this can create a negative cycle: as the temperature drops after each defrost, the unit ramps up unnecessarily, which in turn causes more frequent defrosts.
• Temperature readings after defrost – After defrost, the unit blasts hot air for a short time, then short-cycles aggressively. Which in turn causes defrosts to happen more often.
• Temperature control – When the display shows 21 °C, increasing the setpoint to 21.5 °C or 22 °C does nothing, same energy use, same air temperature. Only at 22.5–23 °C does it react, but then it overshoots and wastes power.
  This leads to confusing temperature behavior: 21 °C might keep the house at 22 °C one day, but when outdoor temperature changes, the unit doesn't adjust its power draw so indoor temperature slowly drops or rises even as the unit "thinks" it's stable.
  From the service manual, it looks like the unit only reacts to temperature differences larger than 1.5 °C, which might explain the strange behavior. (My wife said it was cold, so she increased the temp by 0.5 like with the mitsu, nothing was happening, then another 0.5. Still nothing and she was cold. Then after doing this a few times it was suddenly way too hot. Not very user friendly)
• Internal temperature sensor placement. From the factory, it's mounted directly on the indoor coil. This design caused huge temperature fluctuations and unreliable readings in my case.
• Minimum input power draw. The marketed minimum power draw is not achievable under normal conditions. The seller had no idea how to make it happen, and Panasonic hasn't commented either.
  Looking at other forums (and as I wrote previously here) found a hidden "recipe" for achieving the advertised numbers, but it's basically impossible unless the internal sensor is moved far away from the coil. My unit had, on the worst days, up to 100 starts/stops per day, causing big indoor temperature swings and unnecessary power draw due to this.

Other issues:

• Ticking sound: A mechanical ticking noise started around 7–8 months in. Before buying, I was told "there are never issues with Panasonic," yet the seller's later email suggested this was actually a known issue with a bearing and an adjustment needed.
• Outdoor unit behavior: The first outdoor unit defrosted without any real need for it. Replacing the unit improved this, but it still performs unnecessary defrosts even with a clean coil, just less often.
• Noise level: The outdoor unit is much louder than my previous Mitsubishi and Daikin models. It genuinely sounds like a small propeller plane, and the compressor makes a metallic resonance.
• Indoor vanes: The vanes on the indoor unit deformed after only 2–3 months of normal use.

Summary:

I'm relieved to get a full refund, but the experience was exhausting. The product clearly doesn't perform according to its specifications, and the support process was unnecessarily difficult. Hopefully this helps others evaluate their options before buying.
Unit will be replaced with a Daikin comfora we have in the bedroom, which I know works fine…

Disclaimer: These are my personal experiences with «one» unit and one seller; others may have different results.

Great to hear you completed the task. Hopefully the new device will work better.

I've noticed similar behavior on my own HZ device, but after some modifications and addings I'm now quite happy with the performance of my HZ device.

 

[NorPump]

So while I’m waiting for the unit to be decommissioned, here are some final observations now that we’ve had a few days of frost (-3 to -7°C).

When the temperature is above 0°C, the outdoor unit can sometimes run for hours without a defrost (my longest observation was around 8 hours).

Now, in frost conditions, it’s defrosting roughly every hour; exactly the same behaviour as the old outdoor unit before it was replaced. What I find strange is that there is no frost buildup on the coil at all when it decides to defrost. The compressor stops, the unit runs a defrost cycle for 5–20 seconds, then stops and waits a few minutes before heating again. There’s no water dripping from the unit during these events either.
I guess this is better than the 16-25 minute defrosts…but seems unnormal.

Heating performance still doesn’t make sense. Indoor temperature is dropping and the unit doesn’t seem able to increase output when the heating demand rises. The 0.5 ability to modulate the temperature seems unnecessary, as it just doesn’t work. Modulation appears to be very limited or inconsistent.

I honestly still struggle to understand how this model gets recommended so widely. Maybe my installation environment is just particularly challenging, but the behaviour I’m seeing doesn’t line up with the marketed capabilities.

I’m looking forward to testing how the Daikin we have in the bedroom performs once it’s moved to this same location. Our bedrooms are also getting an upgrade with a Toshiba multisplit mainly for cooling (yes, it’s a bit silly, but the wife wanted a single outdoor unit).

I’m not necessarily writing this to complain, but i hope its useful information to have when considering a heatpump. Its something i wish i knew before being persuaded/misled into.

 

[NorPump]

I got the Daikin Comfora 35 from 2019 installed in the same location yesterday. Been heating the house with the Multisplit until yesterday, so a bit lower temps in the living areas.
Its only been 24 hours, but already I see a drastic improvement in house comfort. My theory is that the air outlet of the Panasonic is just too wide/large for my use to move the air far and when increasing the fan speed it just ends up sucking more of its own air inside itself, the Daikin has a more narrow outlet which I think increases the pressure of the air which again can move the air further and I can have the fan at 3/5 to distribute the air in the house (which again causes less noise). On paper this Daikin has far less m3/h, but still moves the air better IMHO (as I can tell from the more even temp in the house, I have sensors in every room).
Attached is the consumption, even if the consumption jumps a bit up and down now and then, the indoor temps are much more stable than with the Panasonic.

It modulates nicely and keeps the temperature much more stable than it was with the Panasonic. No defrosts in almost 24 hours (outside temp is 3-4 with rain). If there is an interest I can do more comparisons as I have some experience with the pana operations. Again, this is just to bring out experiences on how the unit operates in order to make a better rationale around choosing the correct heat pump.

Oh, one last thing, I have not done anything with the Daikin. No moving of the temp sensor as I had to with the Panasonic. Both the Toshiba and Daikin just seem to work out of the box…

I’ll keep my head in this part of the forum if there is anything I can contribute with, but my story with Panasonic ends now. I know now which pumps I’ll avoid in the future at least…

Ps:
I wrote a summary of the Toshiba Multisplit in the Toshiba subforum.

 

[juovi]

Paljonkohan tässä HZ35ZKE pitäisi olla max ottoteho? Mulla ei ole muuta mittausta tässä kuin Confort Cloud ja sen mukaan olisi ottanu verkosta noin 2,2-2,3 kWh/tunnissa, mutta tuskin se tuntia on ihan täysillä mennyt.. Kyllä tuo melkein täysillä kävi nyt pakkasten aikaan.

 

[Husky]

Oma NZ menee tehoryntäilyssä reilusti yli (kilowatin verran yli) siitä mitä teksinissä tiedoissa sanotaan max tehoksi

 

[iro]

Paljonkohan tässä HZ35ZKE pitäisi olla max ottoteho? Mulla ei ole muuta mittausta tässä kuin Confort Cloud ja sen mukaan olisi ottanu verkosta noin 2,2-2,3 kWh/tunnissa, mutta tuskin se tuntia on ihan täysillä mennyt.. Kyllä tuo melkein täysillä kävi nyt pakkasten aikaan.

Tässä Shellyllä mitattua dataa. Huippu 2100W, korkein yhden lämmitysjakson keskiarvo kulutus jotakin 1800W.

 

[juovi]

Tässä Shellyllä mitattua dataa. Huippu 2100W, korkein yhden lämmitysjakson keskiarvo kulutus jotakin 1800W.

Oliko sulla puhallukset ja pyynnit maksimissa?

 

[juovi]

Kyllä se Comfort Cloud näyttää ihan oikein. Tuosta linkin sivulta löytyy tietoa ja 2,25 kW se ottaa maksimissaan tehoa verkosta.

CS-HZ35ZKE-H + CU-HZ35ZKE

Panasonicilla on yli 30 vuoden kokemus lämmityksestä ja jäähdytyksestä ja myyntiä yli 120 maassa eri puolilla maailmaa, joten olemme yksi alamme johtavista toimijoista. Laajan tuotanto- sekä tutkimus- ja kehityslaitosverkoston kehittämät innovatiiviset ja huipputekniset Panasonic-tuotteet...

www.aircon.panasonic.eu

 

[iro]

Oliko sulla puhallukset ja pyynnit maksimissa?

Puhallus on "Mid-low" ja pyynti 21 (=18+3)==> sisälämpö on 21...22C. Sisäyksikön lämpötila-anturi on siirretty sisäyksikön ulkopuolelle noin metrin sisäyksikön alapuolelle. Pumppu on alakerrassa ja lämpö pääsee hyvin leviämään avoimesta portaikosta yläkertaan.

 

[Tonttila]

Mitä tuolla käyttöohjeessa, Heat kohdan min/max lämpötilarajoilla tarkoitetaan? Min -25°C, kai sitä kylmemmässäkin voi käyttää?

 

[VeeHoo]

Viime talvesta asti HZ25ZKE ollut käytössä. Sisäyksikkö pitää jatkuvaa napsuntaa varsinkin lämmitysmoodissa ja on myös puhallusääneltään todella äänekäs. En olisi ostanut jos olisin nämä tiennyt etukäteen.

Onpas outoa. Itsellä nyt muutaman päivän ollut käytössä HZ25ZKE ja on todella hiljainen. Puhallusääni todella hiljainen eikä kuulu napsuntaa. Kun on sulatuksella, niin muutama vaimea naksahdus kuuluu sulatuksen aikana mutta itse sulatuksessakaan ei kuulu mitään puhahduksia yms. Ja sisäyksikkö on pakon sanelemana makuuhuoneessa, niin huomaisi kyllä jos sisäyksikkö olisi äänekäs. Voikohan näissä tosiaan olla yksilöeroja?

 

[VeeHoo]

Yksilövikoja näissä. Oma Pana ei pidä naksunaa ja puhalluskin niin hiljaista ettei tahdo huomata kun menee katkolle. Pitänyt laittaa 100cm pitkä serpentiini että pystyy kyttäämään sen puhallusta paremmin 5m päästä. Puhallus 2/5 (tai 3/6 jos laksee quietin mukaan).

Ja sanoisin että meillä taustamelu minimaalista että pitäisi kuulua puhina täällä jos missä, mutta tiedä tuosta

Sama homma. Todella hiljainen laite ja lämpöä riittää. Tein testin -15 pakkasella. Pyynti 30c ja puhallus 1. Pukkasi 52c ilmaa sisälle.

 

[Husky]

Tämä piti kaksi ekaa talvea sulatuspuhahduksen (ei haitannut sekään) muttei enää. Ehkä asetus 58 -3 vaikutti tähän.